In 2023, trend reports show the American palate’s heightened receptiveness to global flavors and cuisines. This phenomenon is reflected in the level of diversity in both restaurant menus, as well as, CPG products in the US. We got the opportunity to interview four incredible CPG brand founders doing just that – making global flavors more accessible to everyone.

The Companies, Founders & Products

For CPG businesses, COVID brought a bittersweet influx in demand as people hunkered down in their homes and eating in became a necessity. However, the spike came with requirements for many brands to shift their focus to eCommerce almost overnight, in addition to supply chain issues that continue to persist to this day. Shifting still are consumer buying behaviors as inflation remains high.

This is all to say that operating a CPG company is no easy task. Combine that with being a startup competing with legacy brand Goliaths, and introducing novel flavors that are seen as obscure to the masses, and success seems nearly impossible.

Despite the odds, a number of food and beverage brands have not only succeeded, but triumphed – with some launching in the midst of the pandemic and others with zero marketing budget. For these brands, integrating global flavors into the marketplace is not a short-lived trend, it is a part of their culture and they have a grand vision to share it with the world.

This article summarizes interviews with the following CPG founders where they shared with us their professional path pre-startup, why and how they crafted their products, the ups and downs of their unique journeys, and how it all connects with their cultural upbringings and visions for the future:

Max Boonthanakit, co-founder of Boon: Small batch chili oils that combine traditional Asian spices with other flavors, such as fennel seeds, to produce a well-balanced, savory taste.
Tiffany Leong, founder of Bo-yi: Organic Asian superfood powders and pre-made, whole herb teas with unique ingredients such as hawthorn berry, jujube and chrysanthemum – no preservatives or artificial sweeteners.
Kim Pham, co-founder of Omsom: Perfectly proportioned, rip-and-pour, starter sauces and saucy noodles crafted from chef tastemakers highlighting next-level Asian flavors.
Alisar Serhan, co-founder of Simon Foods: Lebanese garlic spread, toum, made from a 35-year-old family recipe that is healthy, vegan, keto and crafted from a superfood.
Nigel Sielegar, founder of Moon Man: Delectable, coconut-based sweet spread made without preservatives in innovative flavors such as pandan and ube.

Tiffany Leong with two of Bo-yi’s hawthorn berry and jujube teas

Different Paths to Entrepreneurship

If you’re like me, you’re in awe of entrepreneurs – especially those who have built something important. It feels like they’re in a league of their own and it’s easy to assume that they are all cut from the same special cloth. But those generalizations just aren’t true; and these founders prove it. Their backgrounds and journeys are far from similar, demonstrating the tapestry of paths that can lead to entrepreneurship.

For a good portion of the founders, they didn’t have a specific background in food or CPG prior to starting their companies. Alisar Serhan of Simon Foods is a pharmacist by trade and her co-founders, Boushra Obeid, Rony Bou Nehme and Maan Hamdan, are engineers. But they bonded over their love of social gatherings that revolved around Lebanese foods.

Moon Man’s founder, Nigel Sielegar, is another example. Nigel was (and still is) the owner of a design firm in New York City, Corse Design Factory, when he picked up a serendipitous client – John Wang who runs the Queens Night Market. “I always wanted to have a food business on the side for the longest time,” said Nigel, so he asked John for a booth at the highly competitive outdoor market that runs on Saturdays. Naturally, at first, the client was curious as to why a designer would want a food booth at the market. But as Nigel’s Southeast Asian desserts grew in popularity, now producing over a thousand units per night, it was clear that Nigel’s cooking was exactly what the NYC food scene needed.

Max Boonthanakit in the kitchen with his wife and cofounder of Boon, Wendi Ogata

For Kim Pham, she combined her background and expertise with those of her sister’s to create the winning formula for Omsom’s success. Kim comes from the world of early-stage startups and venture capital. “While I was in school at NYU, I became the first female president of Tech@NYU – NYC’s largest developer and designer organization. I was also a founding partner of Dorm Room Fund NYC, First Round Capital’s student-run venture arm,” says Kim. She went on to be Head of Platform at Frontline Ventures in London. In contrast, Kim’s sister and co-founder, Vanessa Pham, has a background in CPG and eCommerce as a consultant at Bain. Together, they felt well-equipped to quit their jobs and go full force in starting Omsom.

Tiffany Leong of Bo-yi had her footing in agriculture before starting her Asian superfood brand. Tiffany was an investment banker turned agricultural investor in San Francisco. She spent a lot of her time in the Central Valley, seeing where our food comes from and investing in crops from table grapes to tree nuts. She was two years into her MBA at Yale when the pandemic hit and she pivoted to starting Bo-yi.

For Max Boonthanakit, Boon was the culmination of years of experience in professional kitchens. Max worked in all types of restaurants, “from savory to pastry, Italian to South American.” After moving to Los Angeles, Max’s culinary resume only grew: “I worked in Spanish restaurants like The Bazaar, I worked at Inc. Republique. Steakhouses. Boba shops, I wanted to learn everything.” Even now, as he co-runs Boon with his wife, Wendi Ogata, Max owns and operates a French bistro in the arts district called Camphor.

Stories of Culture, Childhood and Family

“Foodie” is a common word thrown around nowadays. It’s hard to find someone who doesn’t identify with this word. But where the love for food becomes most powerful is when it gives us a feeling of belonging, comfort, and a warm sense of “home.”

That feeling is something that all the founders share when it comes to their creations. For Nigel, Moon Man’s Kaya Jams bring him back to Southeast Asia. Growing up in Indonesia, his favorite desserts were often sold by street vendors. Since his parents didn’t cook, he would grab the sweets after school and go straight to working in his parents’ rice shop. In the shop is where he would glean his initial business acumen that set the stage for founding his design firm and later, Moon Man.

On the other side of the globe in Lebanon, Alisar experienced the deliciousness of authentic toum – a creamy garlic spread. “I grew up in the United Arab Emirates and I distinctly remember that there was no good toum around us growing up…but we would actually vacation in Lebanon every summer and straight from the airport, my mom would take us to this shawarma place and we'd all get shawarmas with extra toum.” Alisar’s husband and co-founder, Rony, has fond memories in Lebanon where his parents owned a restaurant that specialized in toum: “his distinct memory would be peeling the garlic cloves to make the toum and helping his dad with the whole process.” Rony’s dad’s recipe is the same recipe they use in Simon Foods’ toum product today. And as you may have guessed, Rony’s dad’s name is Simon!

Memories of parents in the kitchen are also shared by the remaining founders. Having a Thai dad, Max grew up eating spicy foods. And his dad made sure he had access to lots of spicy goodies in the kitchen. “He always loved collecting chili sauces and hot sauces and our refrigerator would just be stocked with them. So I really fell in love with all the chili oils.” This love for chili oils bloomed into Max’s creation of Boon many years later.

Sisters, Vanessa Pham and Kim Pham, representing Omsom’s new saucy noodles (photo credit: Emma Fishman)

Both Tiffany and Kim think of their moms as inspiration for their companies. Growing up, Tiffany’s mom made her tons of soups, herbal drinks and teas that she would later find a new appreciation for. “After a huge meal with five courses that my mom would cook from scratch, she would also, in addition, have this amazing herbal soup that she was cooking on the stove for five hours with 20 different herbs. It's a lot of love and time.” Bo-yi’s tea drinks and superfood powders contain many of the same Asian herbs Tiffany’s mom used in her family recipes.

The labor of love through food was something that Kim also knows well. “Growing up, our mom (Mama Pham to us!) worked hard to cook a three-course Vietnamese dinner for our family –– for our intergenerational, cross-cultural family, this was her love language to us.” Though much of Omsom’s sauces and saucy noodles are products of chef collaborations, Kim says, “We definitely see peeks of Mama Pham’s love for bold flavors in all that we do and she is definitely the reason we are here today.”

Solving a Problem That They Themselves Had

It’s common advice for aspiring entrepreneurs looking to start their first business to fulfill a need that they themselves have. Airbnb founders needed to pay rent and decided to rent out their air mattress. Mark Zuckerberg wanted to know more information about his friends and classmates – in came the Facebook MVP. The founders we interviewed were no different. They had a problem and they started a company to solve it.

Bo-yi’s conceptualization was the result of an urgent need that Tiffany was faced with. The demanding life of an investment banker presented her with health issues that her doctors did not know how to remedy. “I was getting hives out of nowhere, I took food allergy tests, and I was allergic to everything. The doctors didn't really know what to do. But one doctor told me to eat food that my ancestors ate to try to fuel my body,” said Tiffany. With her loving mom by her side in the doctor’s office, she knew exactly what to do. Tiffany’s mom worked hard in the kitchen to cook her up some of the comfort foods and drinks from her childhood which included Chinese soups and herbal drinks. “She put it in a canister or sometimes she'd even drop it off at my office. It was really, really sweet. And I just loved it. I thought it tasted amazing. And, over time, my body stopped freaking out and reacting to every little thing.” Years later, while getting her MBA at Yale, Tiffany noticed the many superfoods that were becoming popular in the US and it brought her back to her mom’s recipes. As Tiffany described it, “I wanted to create a brand that gave a spotlight and platform to these really incredible herbs…I wanted to formulate beverages and drinks to show people that they're not only very good for you, but it tastes really good. So that was the beginning of Bo-yi.”

For Max, he had built up his tolerance for spice after eating two jars of Lao Gan Ma chili oil in one week. And since nothing on the market seemed to be spicy enough, he decided to make his own. “I put it on the side burner for a bit, because I started a new job and was working again. And then later on, I picked it back up. And also I needed to pay rent. So I started doing these wonton pop-ups and I was selling my chili oil during that. Then ever since then, my wife kind of convinced me like, ‘you could probably sell it’.”

Nigel also felt like there was something lacking in the market – and that thing was the Indonesian desserts he grew up with. “I decided that I want to sell something that I grew up with, that I couldn't find in New York City,” said Nigel in reference to his first booth at the Queens Night Market. Moon Man’s booth at the market sells Southeast Asian desserts like kue, coconut pancakes, other sweets made with glutinous rice and coconut milk, and of course their jars of kaya jams.

In Simon Foods’ case, Alisar found that there was a gap in the commercial market for a new kind of condiment. Her and her co-founder Boushra thought it was time to “show the world the real taste of toum.” But beyond the incredible taste of their proprietary toum recipe, they saw an opportunity to create a product that could stand strong beside the likes of the ketchups and mustards of the world.

Simon Foods cofounders, Boushra Obeid and Alisar Serhan, celebrating Women’s Day with #embraceequity

For Kim, starting Omsom came from a desire to gain better representation for Asian flavors in grocery aisles and for Asian American identities as a whole. For her and her sister, Vanessa, Omsom is all about re-imagining the entire “ethnic” category and debunking Asian stereotypes in a bold way. As Kim eloquently explains it: “Omsom was born from the Vietnamese phrase ‘om sòm,’ which means rowdy or rambunctious. We became obsessed with the idea of reclaiming this word as a way to take back the untrue tropes that we (and so many Asian Americans) are painted with - quiet, submissive, docile. Our identities have deeply informed the way that we show up in the world and how we’ve built Omsom from the ground up and we are so proud of what we’ve built over the past three years.”

Startup Brands with Mighty Marketing Strategies

Good marketing is essential – most entrepreneurs would agree with that. But how you market and how much you spend on marketing varies greatly across CPG startups. For the founders we interviewed, some enlisted professional firms, while others took on the reigns themselves. Regardless of whether or not they outsourced their efforts, there was a central focus that drove the success of their products: taste.

Simon Foods’ toum products came from a tried and true family recipe that had been tested over 35 years. “It's been fine-tuned to the perfect consistency, the perfect taste, the perfect strength of the garlic inside, and the perfect stability and texture,” says Alisar. They also did an immense amount of sampling with friends and family before launching the product. That backed with the market studies from AddBloom, a digital media agency they hired, made them feel confident to invest in machinery and start pitching to stores right off the bat. Their approach was simple, do in-person pitches to specialty grocery stores in the Houston area. And it worked. “I think they were really interested in us just because we were women led and shelf stable. Toum is a very versatile product, or at least our toum is a very versatile product,” said Alisar. She continued, “We did go and try to speak to people in person, because you know, it's just easier that way. If you send an email, I feel like it's so impersonal. And they don't get to really see the story behind the product.” After just 5 months in business, Simon Foods’ products are already stocked in specialty stores around Houston, including the highly regarded Phoenicia Specialty Foods.

For Bo-yi, they found success in specific niches. As an Asian superfood company, it was natural that many of their first customers were Asian Americans who enjoyed many of the flavors from their teas growing up. Even so, customer education was crucial. Asian Americans were often familiar with the flavors upon tasting them but they didn’t always know the name of the ingredients, for example hawthorn berry. What was particularly interesting was the reaction from the acupuncturist crowd. Tiffany said they crossed paths with these folks naturally through events and on social media. “These are people that maybe didn't grow up eating these herbs, or even learning about what acupuncture is, but they've taken the time to educate themselves, and they're going to Chinatown, they're buying Chinese herbs, and it takes a lot of time. And when they find our product, it saves them a lot of time, it tastes amazing, and they know the benefits of the herb,” said Tiffany. Bo-yi now does events with an upscale acupuncture chain in New York City called WTHN.

Nigel Sielegar, founder of Moon Man Kaya Jams

Omsom found that the best marketing needed to center on a mission, stories, community and never cut corners when it came to the product. “As founders, we are deeply passionate about building a mission-driven company and bringing overlooked stories and flavors into American homes, and this commitment shines through everything we do – from our lines of products to our marketing initiatives to the way we communicate with our community online and in real life,” said Kim.

Sharing the product with others and having the flavors speak for themselves is an approach that both Boon and Moon Man share. Max samples Boon sauce with chefs, people in the press and nearly everyone he comes across: “...anyone I see, I try to have a jar on me or in the car”.

For Nigel, he shares Moon Man products through his booth at the Queens Night Market. To this day, Moon Man operates with a $0 marketing budget: “We never paid for marketing, we never paid for influencers, we never paid for a PR company,” said Nigel. To expand on the influencer piece, not only does Moon Man not pay for influencers, they don’t work with influencers period – free product exchanges included. Their website reads, “We would like to keep our product review to be as honest as possible, without influence from our side.” Nigel believes in creating an honest company that breeds trust. For Moon Man, it’s all about creating “conversation capital” – the idea that if you create a product and experience that are worth talking about, word will spread on its own.

The Ups and Downs of Entrepreneurship

The good news about modern-day entrepreneurship is that starting your own business is a more acceptable career path than it’s ever been. The downside is that it can be over-glorified – showcasing overnight successes over endless workdays, feelings of loneliness and much delayed, or sometimes never realized, paydays.

“We definitely did go through a lot of hiccups,” said Alisar, explaining that it took the Simon Foods’ founders 36 straight hours to get the machinery they purchased to work properly, followed by many hours of cleanup.

Tiffany talked about being patient, especially when working with a product that requires a lot of customer education such as Bo-yi’s teas: “It's something that I haven't done before, and we're creating a new category. So that in and of itself was very, very challenging.”

Kim expands on her perspective of these entrepreneurial challenges with Omsom: “Being a founder is a deeply difficult, grueling journey that will test everything that you know about yourself. It seems counterintuitive, but rest and recovery are sometimes equally as important as grinding and pushing forward. 3 years in, we’re learning this the hard way and wish we had installed guardrails earlier on in the journey on our physical and mental health.”

Still, these founders have something very important in common: they are relentless optimists. None of them spent much time discussing the lows, especially in comparison to the high points in their journeys:

“The brightest spot was when we actually got approval from the Phoenicia Specialty Store, that they would have our products on the shelves. And so the first time that they stocked the shelves with toum, we went over there and we checked it out. And that was one of my proudest moments, to see your product. Like, it's a real thing, people are actually buying this. So that dream is finally a reality,” said Alisar.

Seeing her product on shelves was a monumental moment for Tiffany as well, “It was really exciting to finally get it launched with the pandemic and seeing it on shelves, and seeing strangers buy it. That's crazy to me. And seeing it on shelves, you know, you're looking at a formula which took a long time to master, the design – which I have a finance background, I have no creative design background – and seeing that it looks amazing on shelves, it just felt really special.”

Bo-yi’s three pre-made Asian superfood tea varieties

Kim shared her gratitude for Omsom’s strong community: “Seeing such an incredibly ride-or-die community rise up around us - it is an honor and a privilege to build for fellow first-gen, third-culture Asian Americans who feel seen and heard by our work.”

For Max and Nigel, the lows and highs were one and the same. “Everything is like we're just growing. And learning from everything. I'm trying to take in as much as we can. It feels like it's just the beginning,” shared Max with regard to Boon’s journey.

“I'm always a big believer of this concept of there's no such thing as defeat, there's no such thing as failure. Like I have zero fear of failure, zero. When I started my design business, I started with $3500 in the bank and a laptop. That's all I had when I started Corse Design Factory. And then, when I started Moon Man, same concept. I started Moon Man with $2500 in investment. Entire Moon Man is $2500 of investment. I haven't added any money to Moon Man since its inception. So essentially what we have right now is all thanks to the $2500 of seed money that I put in in the beginning,” Nigel said with confidence. He continued to say that it’s a calculated bet that he’s comfortable placing. Worst case scenario, if he runs out of money, he’ll just shut the company down and start something else.

Daring to Dream and Make an Impact

All of the founders we’ve interviewed are familiar with the “ethnic food aisle.” However, none believes that their products and brand were made just for a selected few. While they believe in the importance of honoring their roots, they also believe in the power of food, community and culture to forge connections and build bridges to missions that expand beyond a specific cultural cuisine.

“Our ultimate goal with Omsom is to be a household name with a strong presence on grocery store shelves (and in people’s pantries) across the country. What really sets Omsom apart from other brands out there is our unwavering commitment to cultural integrity and honoring the multitudes and nuances of Asian cultures and flavors,” says Kim, “Not only do we want to do the hard work on shattering the harmful stereotypes and tropes surrounding Asian cuisine, but we also want to cultivate a community that revels in joy– because we all deeply deserve that.”

Tiffany talked about the great opportunities that exist in Asian superfoods and her desire to share them with people of different cultures: “The grand vision of Bo-yi is just to be the brand that represents Asian superfoods and there's well over 100 different Asian superfoods that we have the opportunity to produce. So far we've introduced 6. And a lot of other herbs are hidden in the drinks as well that we don't highlight as much, but I think it's a big opportunity to share with other cultures and even within our own culture about these herbs, their benefits and great taste.”

Max doesn’t want to limit Boon to just chili oils or Asian flavors. When asked about the type of products he plans on developing in the future, Max responded, “Just anything that I think I can do exceptionally well. Because I really want to have products that are really high quality for someone's kitchen.” He mentioned bringing in his expertise with sweets and really any project that he’d find fun. Max wants his products to touch lives, regardless of ethnic and cultural backgrounds.

Nigel is focused on impacting others as well, “one jar of kaya jam at a time.” He’s looking to grow Moon Man: “I want Southeast Asia flavors to have representation here to the very least in New York City. If it can be in the United States - great…If my product can change a couple of people's lives for the better, I'm happy already.”

In addition to developing more flavors of toum, Alisar describes her vision: “The population of Arab Americans in the United States is growing a lot. And they call the United States home. So what I want also is to help them feel like the United States is a home. And I think I would achieve that by them seeing toum, which is Middle Eastern, mostly Lebanese product…if they see toum on the shelves, that would also make them feel more at home to see something that is so important in their culture and their diet to be just on the regular shelf right next to your ketchup.”

Omsom’s new saucy noodles (lifestyle credit: Rana Duzyol)

The Future is Full of Flavor

The accessibility to information, website builders, eCommerce platforms and social media has made launching a company exponentially easier than it’s been historically. But when the barrier to entry is low, the competition is high. Nonetheless, it takes a ton of guts, money and time to build a CPG business from the ground up.

The founders interviewed in this article are paragons of gumption, resilience and grit. Not only did they go against the grain to start a business, but they were able to navigate the challenges of creating a new category, introducing novel flavors to the mainstream, and overcoming inevitable objections and stigma. And they all did it in their own way, using their unique backgrounds, and pouring their hearts into making the world a happier, more inclusive place for diversity and diverse flavors.

I hope you enjoyed reading this as much as I enjoyed interviewing these founders. Big thanks to each of these truly inspiring individuals – Max Boonthanakit, Tiffany Leong, Kim Pham, Alisar Serhan, and Nigel Sielegar – for giving me their time and attention for these interviews.

Want to hear the full interviews?

Click below to listen to the full interview with each founder.

Julee 0:37
Well, let's start from before the founding of Simon Foods, what was your professional journey like? What was your background like?
Alisar 0:48
So it actually was founded by me, my husband, and another couple. So we're in business together. So a little bit about my background, I'm actually a pharmacist, which is unrelated to food, but I obviously, I do have a passion for food. And we're all just unrelated to food. So my husband's an engineer and the other couple are both mechanical and electrical engineers. So really just unrelated to food. Yeah. But I don't know if you know about Lebanese culture, but everything is around food, you know, celebrations, funerals, everything is tied to food. So our culture is really just, you know, situated around food, good food. And so we were brought up with toum our whole life, and I thought it was time to share that with the world. So I'm just gonna jump because I'm reading the questions now. I feel like the second question is tied to the professional journey. So why did I feel compelled to start the company? It's a very interesting story. So in January of 2021, you know, COVID, everything was shut down. So we would have kind of like pool parties outside social distancing. And we would invite a couple of friends over, even before the pandemic started, we would have a lot of pool parties. And the food would be Lebanese food. So we'd have a lot of grilled chicken, grilled meats, tabbouleh, fattoush. And of course, you know, the star of the show is definitely toum. A lot of people really loved the toum that my husband made, which is a 35 year old recipe from his dad, who had a restaurant for the longest time, I think it was, like 40 or 45 years. He's now retired. And so the recipe is actually 35 years old. And it's been fine tuned to the perfect consistency, the perfect taste, the perfect strength of the garlic inside and the perfect stability and texture. And so this is the toum that we have packaged and sold today. So, me and my co owner, Boushra, we decided that it was time to show the world the real taste of toum and the real potential of toum which is potentially used for all of the different cuisines, not just Lebanese cuisine, you know, it's so versatile. And so we thought it would be a good idea to just give it a try and sell it to supermarkets and stuff and commercialize it kind of like the way hummus has been commercialized. And yeah, so we sat and we started talking, we said, it's a viable option. And we got a lot of help from both our husbands and we started the company. We officially started in November of 2022. So yeah, we've officially launched the product in the stores November 2022.
Julee 4:39
Wow, that wasn't too long ago. Congratulations.
Alisar 4:42
Yeah. I mean, it was a work in progress. We had been talking about it since 2020. I think, you know, it would be a good idea to show this to the world. You know, to me, it's not really known in the US. So unless you have Lebanese friends or, you know, Middle Eastern friends, and so I think that's what kind of compelled us to start it. It's new on the market. It's really good. It's so versatile, the version that we make is vegan. And so I know that it would be very compelling to a lot of vegan slash vegetarian people. And also a lot of cultures are vegan and vegetarian.
Julee 5:34
Right, right. Are there versions of toum that aren't vegan?
Alisar 5:39
So not that we've seen on the market, our toum is the only one that is actually vegan. A lot of them use egg powder or eggs, or raw eggs as a stabilizer and emulsifier. And so we don't use that, so it's completely vegan. And a lot of the products aren't that we've seen on the market, at least.
Julee 6:08
Wow, that's really interesting. But yeah, I can see why because toum is very fluffy. So I'm guessing the egg whites are a big part of that for many of the products out there or recipes.
Alisar 6:21
Yeah, exactly. The original recipe actually calls for egg whites or they put like potato starch in it also to make it that fluffy consistency. But we don't use either. And that's what makes us shelf stable and not refrigerated. Yeah, a lot of the companies actually that have launched toum are refrigerated only. Also, I don't know if you know Phoenicia they use, they make their own toum and they sell it in their packaging. It's also refrigerated. We have a lot of toum on the market, like Trader Joe's makes their garlic spread and dip. It's also refrigerated. So yeah, ours is kind of like a one of a kind product right now, because it's shelf stable for 12 months.
Wow. Yeah, the only toum that I've seen in stores have been refrigerated. So that is very unique.
Yeah, you will see ours on the regular shelf with the other condiments. So that's what makes it pretty awesome.
Julee 7:35
Yeah, for sure. So I'd love to go back to this point about you getting into stores. But before we do, can you tell me a little bit about whether there's any specific memories from your childhood or from your family background that kind of connects to toum? I know that you said overall, you know, Lebanese families are all about food and gathering together. But do you have any particular stories that kind of remind you of the product that you've produced?
Alisar 8:13
So yeah, so I actually am a third culture kid. I didn't grow up in Lebanon. I grew up in the United Arab Emirates and I distinctly remember that there was no good toum around us growing up you know, in the UAE but we would actually vacation in Lebanon every summer and straight from the airport, my mom would take us to this shawarma place and we'd all get shawarmas with extra toum in there. And it was just you know, it was just a welcoming. Every time we'd come from come from the UAE to visit family and stuff, there was always that one stop where we would just get off order our shawarma with extra toum, eat it in the car on the way home, ready to meet, you know, the family and stuff. So, yeah, that was a memory. But I think a stronger memory would be actually my husband, Rony, whom his father and mother actually owned a restaurant for the longest time and their specialty was anything to do with Lebanese cuisine, but it was mainly sandwiches and so shawarma, kabobs, stuff like that was always on the menu. And they have their specialty toum, which is the recipe that we're using now. And so I think his distinct memory would be peeling the garlic cloves to make the toum and helping his dad with the whole process. I'm not going to tell you the process because that's a secret. But he grew up with garlic and he would sell it at the restaurant. And it was always there with the main dish, you know, to dip anything in it. And so I think that's one of his distinct memories, making the toum with his dad in the kitchen, in the restaurant kitchen. And helping out his parents with the recipe, packaging them, because they also sold them on the side. So yeah, I think that would be a more distinct memory.
Julee 10:36
And was that restaurant in the US, or was that in Lebanon?
Alisar 10:40
I know it was in Lebanon. So he also grew up in Lebanon, and he moved here, back in 2018.
Julee 10:50
Gotcha. And for you, I know you said you grew up in the UAE, when you went back to Lebanon, were you always back and forth every summer? And when you were in Lebanon, was that the first time you tried the toum?
Alisar 11:04
So my mom makes it at home, but in Lebanon, it's just the very best toum everywhere you go. Like, it's really good no matter where you go. It's just like the standard thing. And so homemade it was kind of a healthier version. So my mom was all about, you know, not adding a lot of oil and always having healthy ingredients. So when we did go to Lebanon, we'd always have the real deal, you know, so we used to vacation every summer in Lebanon. And it was always on the table. It was always there with everything. It's like a comfort food for everyone. It's also something that people love to have with their shawarma after they go clubbing. They come back at 2am, that's like their McDonald's. I think this is what they do here. Like they go out, you know, late at night, drink a lot and then come back have McDonald's. Over there, it's the shawarma with extra toum.
Julee 12:16
Okay, I love that. Yeah, over here in the LA area and our version is bacon wrapped hot dogs. Because they're the street vendors, that's what they sell. So yeah, that's what we're used to. I get it.
Alisar 12:33
So it's basically just very entangled in our culture. Like when you think of Lebanon, you think of tabbouleh and you think of shawarma with extra toum.
Julee 12:47
That's awesome. And how did you and your husband meet?
Alisar 12:51
So I moved back to Lebanon for university, I graduated and then I started working at a hospital in Lebanon. So we met when he was visiting his parents. We met at a comedy show. Yeah, stand up comedy.
Julee 13:11
And I love stand up.
Alisar 13:12
Me too. Yeah, so we met there through mutual friends and we did long distance for like the longest time and then I was like okay, maybe that's enough. Maybe we should kind of take the next step, see where this goes.
Julee 13:30
And I think I read that you guys are, are you both in Texas now?
Alisar 13:35
Yeah, we are based in Houston, Texas. I thought sorry. I thought you were Houston based I think that's what I read.
Julee 13:44
On no no. I'm actually in Orange County, California. So about 45 minutes south of LA.
Alisar 13:51
Oh, okay. I don't know why I have the impression that you were Houston based too. Sorry my bad
Julee 14:00
No worries. I mean with the presence of Zoom. We're basically always all in the same room right?
Alisar 14:08
That's true. Very true.
Julee 14:11
Well, I love that story. When was the first time you got to try your husband's father's toum? His name is Simon right the company's named after him?
Alisar 14:22
Yeah, yeah. So actually it was when I went to meet his parents for the first time. So you know, obviously very intimidating, they have very high standards, not very happy with all of the other the girlfriends that Rony brought back home. So they invited me over for lunch and we had broasted chicken so like grilled. A whole grilled or roasted chicken with you know, stuffed with rice. That's also a Lebanese specialty. It's like the Turkey here. And, yeah. And so you also eat that with toum. And that was on the menu. And so that was the very first time that I tried it and my, now Uncle Simon, he explained the history of toum and how it's like a 35 year long project and how he perfected it to get to this taste and texture. And he was just telling me about the history of it. And that's how we started to bond over food. And then that's how they liked me because I liked food.
Julee 15:37
That's awesome. Well, that's the authentic you, right?
Alisar 15:40
Yep. And so he's really happy now, you know, that the company is named after him. And he's a very emotional guy. So he teared up a little bit when we told him that we were naming the company after him. And yeah, it was a really nice moment when we broke the news that we were gonna launch Simon Foods and start using his recipe, he's really proud of us and excited that the legacy was going to continue.
Julee 16:13
Yeah, that's really sweet. And what a great way to honor him. So you guys launched in November 2022. And you said that you launched in stores right away? Is that how you started to get the product out there?
Alisar 16:33
Yeah, so we're actually in specialty food stores now in Houston, the largest one being Phoenicia. But you can find the full list of where we are now on our website. But the largest one is the Phoenicia specialty store. It's like, famous in Houston. They have all types of specialty foods. They sell, you know everything. So we started with them. And we've been doing pretty well. We started selling on our website too when we launched a campaign on social media that we were selling on our website. But then we moved to Amazon. So now we're on Amazon, we stopped selling on our website and just moved directly to Amazon. So you can find us there as well if you want to order your own jar of toum. And yeah, we're trying to also get into like the chain food stores. So Kroger, HEB, Whole Foods. HEB is like a huge grocery store here in Texas. I'm pretty sure you've heard of it.
Julee 17:47
I don't think we have them here in California.
Alisar 17:52
No, not in Southern California. No, they're only in Texas. So it's a chain that's in only in Texas. And I think they're opening sores in Louisiana. But that's about it. But they're huge here. And it's HEB. So it stands for here everything's better, which is true, they're a great grocery store. But you know, Texans are very full of themselves. So it's very fitting like the name.
Julee 18:26
They're proud of their state, right?
Alisar 18:30
They are yeah, that's what it is. Yeah, so they have a lot of diverse, Texas made products there. And so we were pitching our product to them. But you know, it's difficult to get into the huge chain stores. So we're still working on that. We've got leads at Kroger, HEB, Whole Foods. And yeah, and we're on Amazon now. So I think it's just much easier. Because Amazon is everywhere. And you know, all of the states can order from Amazon rather than just being in store only in Texas.
Julee 19:17
Right, right. And I'm sure being shelf stable helps with the shipping a lot as well.
Alisar 19:22
Yeah, it really does. Yeah. And we've tested it. So we have it FDA approved and shelf stable for 12 months. But we've also done our own testing, microbial testing and stability taste texture testing for around 12 months and it's also from like outside parties like so third party. And yeah, so far so good. I think it can go on later on for more than 12 months, but right now we're just being a little bit cautious with the expiry date
Julee 19:59
Right, that's fair. Well, it's really interesting that you guys went straight into kind of developing the product and getting in stores because I know like, with a lot of startups, they have different journeys, right. Like some of them will do the cottage food route, where they do it from their home kitchens, and then launch in farmer's markets. What made you decide to, It sounds like you went straight for having someone, a third party create it and distribute it? What was your approach there?
Alisar 20:39
Yeah, so we actually make our own toum but not at home, we have a warehouse so a manufacturing warehouse where we have like a whole line of machines and stuff to mass produce it, because ideally, what we wanted to do with this product was to kind of market it as a condiment. Kind of like ketchup, mayo, mustard, so like a healthier alternative to all those because we have a superfood ingredient in there, which is the garlic. So what we wanted to do marketing wise was try to market it as that, not as a specialty food. Like just the garlic spread and dip from Lebanon. So that's our end goal is to put it on the shelves along with ketchup, ranch, mustard and mayo. And so we decided that going the the big manufacturing route where like we could mass produce them on a bigger scale, rather than just make them at home and sell them at farmer's market would be a better approach. And so that's what we did. We actually rented a warehouse, we bought all of the machines. And we were producing them on kind of a mass scale.
Julee 21:57
It's very ambitious, but I love it. I love that you guys just went for it. Yeah. Are you self funded? Or do you have other folks backing you? How were you able to do all this?
Alisar 22:28
Yeah, we're self funded. I mean, we all still work our regular day jobs. And so this is kind of like a side hustle thing. But we self funded and yeah.
Julee 22:44
You all invested in it together?
Alisar 22:47
Yeah. Correct. That's correct.
Julee 22:50
Wow, that's amazing. And how did you know I mean, like, you kind of went in big, right? Like you have this really grand vision for the company that everything's gonna work like, in terms of like getting it into the stores and selling online and having it become this household condiment. What made you like know that it was going to work? Like do you guys have someone that has a marketing background? Or do you have anyone else helping you with that? Or like, what made you feel so sure that you're going to be able to get it out as quickly as you did after manufacturing so much?
Alisar 0:00
Yes, so we have a marketing or digital media agency, back in Lebanon, called AddBloom, and they actually told us to go for it. So there are two points to this. The first one would be the digital media agency that we were working with. They said that it based on market studies and stuff, there was a really good place for toum the way that we were doing it, the way that we went about to do it. And so that gave us the green light to start the route that we chose, and not just like, start small, and then get bigger, just go all out. And also, we had a lot of feedback from a lot of people before we launched the product. We did a lot of sampling to a lot of people who said they loved it. And they would definitely buy this, you know, on a recurring basis, just like they would with ketchup and mustard and, you know, ranch and mayo and all of those things. And so I started thinking like, why would we want to market it as kind of a specialty food? It can be as big as ketchup, mayo, ranch and mustard.
Julee 2:02
And was that friends and family? Or did you do an actual research group?
Alisar 2:08
And no, no, it was just like friends and family. But a lot of friends and family. And there was a lot of positive feedback. And there was also a little bit of you know, negative feedback. Some people just don't like garlic. So they weren't really interested.
Julee 2:26
They're not your target market.
Alisar 2:27
Yeah. So yeah, so but we got feedback from a lot of cultures. So we have the Hispanic community, we have the Asian community, we have the obviously the Middle Eastern community are all behind us. They were like, yes, go for it. We would love this. So, we thought that it would, I guess mesh well with all of these communities, all of these cultures and, and they would all like it, I was like why not just, you know, just market it as something that they would use, like a condiment or dip in spread, that they would use every day?
Julee 3:10
The digital marketing agency in Lebanon, did they help you with marketing after that initial research as well? Or did they just do the market research for you?
Alisar 3:23
So they did the market research, but they also they're helping us with all of our campaigns and all of our campaigns, and all of the research that comes after that. So trying to find our target market, trying to see who our repeat buyers are, just stuff like that, just so that we can see how to maybe tweak the recipe or something, or just the changes that we can make to make it more accessible to the communities that actually like it and are ordering it and repeating their orders.
Julee 4:08
Got it. That's wonderful. So I know we only got 30 minutes for this call. But this is a fascinating story. I have so many questions. I just wanted to see how you're doing on time.
Alisar 4:21
Yeah, I'm free till 2pm. So whatever you need any.
Julee 4:28
Okay, great. I do have some more questions. I appreciate how generous you are with your time. So I'm curious. So how did you get into like the first initial stores? Did you go there and did you pitch them in person? Did you send an email? How did how did you get into those stores?
Alisar 4:48
So we went there in person. I think they were really interested in us just because we were women led, shelf stable. Toum is a very versatile product, or at least our toum is a very versatile product. It really just targets a lot of different diets. So it's obviously vegan. It's keto friendly, it has a superfood in it. It's shelf stable, which a lot of, as you know, a lot of the super grocery store owners really care about. And so we went, and for some of the companies, we did go and try to speak to people in person, because you know, it's just easier that way. If you send an email, I feel like it's so impersonal. And they don't get to really see the story behind the product. Right. And so we were trying to do that, but we weren't successful with all of them. But we're still trying. And yeah, so we really did go and just try to be more hands on with pushing our product onto the shelves. And so that was our strategy. And so far, it's worked. We're in a couple specialty food stores, and hopefully, we're going to be in the bigger grocery stores.
Julee 6:24
So you would just show up with the product and ask for the buyer of that grocery store?
Alisar 6:30
Yeah, so a lot of people just, I mean, you can't do that at the big grocery stores, as we came to know, but for those specialty food stores, they were very, they were very welcoming. They were, you know, we got little testers for our for garlic dip and spread. And we told her our story and stuff and they were more receptive to it that way, rather than sending them an email. So I feel like if you do have a product that you know, or a small business, you really have to be hands on, you really have to go and like, do the dirty work, not just send an email and wait for them to reply to you.
Julee 7:12
Right, right, actually get out there and do the groundwork. So was there a specific and maybe we already covered it, but is there a specific marketing strategy or tactic that you found to have been most impactful to your company's growth?
Alisar 7:32
So what we did was actually do a lot of sampling after we launched our product with the specialty food stores, and I feel like that really did help us a lot. First of all, it increased exposure to our product to the population of the shoppers that are in the grocery stores. But we also got a look at how people reacted to our product. A lot of people were very interested in our product, they love the packaging, it really like just called out to them. So that was a plus. And we got a lot of feedback from them about the actual like, you know, taste, the texture, we got ideas on how we could use this product. And so a lot of people started saying, I think I'll use this as a marinade, or I think I'll use this for our little gatherings and stuff. So we got a lot of information from our customers, which I highly appreciate. Because, you know, they, a lot of the people really do have good ideas. So if you do go out there and you start sampling your product, they can give you ideas, they can also challenge you to be better. They can give you constructive criticism. So I think that was awesome. And I think that was just the best marketing strategy because it's all about like exposure, you're exposing your product to the population, especially since we're Houston based. They love that it was made in Houston, packaged in Houston and sold in Houston stores. And so you know, a lot of people were really proud that it was just made in Houston. And so they, they bought it just because of that. So it really kind of shed a light on how we can tweak our marketing strategy to better target the populations or which populations we should target. And so yeah, I think that was the best, the best part, the sampling part.
Julee 9:53
Got it, so you're able to get a good look at your ideal customer profile?
Alisar 9:58
Yes.
Julee 10:00
That's awesome. And when you look back at your journey so far, I know you launched in November. So it's been about five, six months now, which I mean, it's amazing how much you've been able to accomplish in that time. But do you have a specific moment where you felt like it was the best, the high of your journey and a moment where it was more like a low of your journey? Would you be open to sharing those stories with us?
Alisar 10:36
Yeah, so we definitely did go through a lot of hiccups. And especially the first time we started to make our garlic spread, and because we obviously were making it a home and getting people to taste it and stuff at our full parties and stuff. So when it started to get serious, and we ordered the machinery, and we tried to make toum for the first time, it was a complete disaster. I think we stayed there for around a day and a half, like 36 hours, just trying to clean up the mess. We were trying to navigate all of the, it's very fine tune machinery, and you have to, it's an orchestra, so you have to conduct it very smoothly. If it doesn't happen like that, things are gonna fall apart. And it's a whole line. So if one part of the machine or one part of the manufacturing process isn't working, well, then you know, everything else is affected. And so yeah, it was definitely a big challenge, trying to make the first batch and package them and send them out. But I think that was one of the lows, but also, it really did bring the team together, where we realized that we were really good team members, we worked really well together under pressure. And it was a really, it was a good and bad memory. I was actually seven months pregnant when we were trying our first batch. So it was really just, you know, the hormones didn't help, obviously. But it was very challenging, very tough. You feel like very defeated, because nothing's working out. And you were very hopeful. And you realize that there were gonna be hiccups. But when the pickups start piling on top of each other, and nothing else is working out, it gets really frustrating. But as a team, I think we really grew closer after that. And I think that's what makes something successful. You know, you need to have the lows to appreciate the highs and the wins.
Julee 13:05
Right? And it's where the issue is that you were not operating the machinery properly. Was it like the ingredients you were putting in like, what, what was the main hiccup there that was making the first batch so difficult.
Alisar 13:20
So it was definitely just the machinery, our ingredients are sourced from the same same source just to make it you know, a very standard product, high quality ingredients that were that are just sourced from the same place just so that we have the same product getting produced every time but we have the just the machinery because they were new and we you need to fine tune them to go according to your pace according to the texture of the of the product that you're trying to package and put into the jars. And so that whole process was Yeah, excruciating. Ly painful. But um, yeah, but we finally ended up you know, working it out and now it's it's very smooth.
Julee 14:17
And how long did it take you to get like it just right first batch.
Alisar 14:23
It took us around two to three tries, not gonna lie. But eventually it worked out and we produced I think it was just our fourth batch that was actually packaged and sent out to the grocery stores. So definitely a lot of great lessons learned and a lot of product, toum, gone down the drain but you learn.
Julee 14:51
Right, gotta have some casualties along the way.
Alisar 14:54
Definitely. Yeah. Good way to put it, casualties
Julee 14:59
And how about our high moment what was like the brightest spot on your journey so far
Alisar 15:05
The brightest spot was when we actually got approval from the Phoenicia specialty store, that they would have our products on the shelves. And so the first time that they stocked the shelves with toum, we went over there and we checked it out. And that was like one of my proudest moments to see your product. Like, it's a real thing. You know, people are actually buying this. Yeah, so that dream is finally a reality. That's what it felt like. So it was really, really nice.
Julee 15:44
Yeah, it just, I'm sure it felt very official to see it on the shelves.
Definitely. Yeah.
If you're thinking about your long term vision for the company, you know, five years, 10 years, 20 years plus - Where do you see the company and what's your overall mission?
Alisar 16:07
So I think in the next five years, I'd love to see toum grow just out of Houston, I'd love to be in different stores around the United States, and maybe possibly the world. I'd love more people to learn about our product and to love our product too. Because it truly is a wonderful product. It's absolutely, it's delicious. And it's so good. And it's healthy for you. And it's so versatile, you can use it for so many things. And so that would be my vision, just to grow our company, hopefully move out of Houston or out of Texas, be in the major grocery stores, and then just increase our accessibility to all of our customers. Right now, we are pretty accessible. Because we're on Amazon. But I'd love to see all of our toum products in the supermarkets. And another vision is to create different variations of toum. We'd love to add different flavors, you know, different packaging, stuff like that. So I would love to see also that part of my vision for toum kind of go into effect and become a reality as well.
Julee 17:41
Yeah I bet, I mean, garlic is so versatile as a flavor. So I can only imagine the many ways you can take the product.
Alisar 17:50
Yeah, definitely. We've been experimenting.
Julee 17:53
I'm sure. Well, I'm excited to see what else you guys create. So last question, I know we're way over, but I want to be respectful of your time. What does it mean for you, I know this comes from your roots, from your family, in terms of bringing toum to the mass market and bringing the Lebanese flavors to the market, like what does that mean for you personally? And how do you hope it will influence the lives of others?
Alisar 18:35
Tough question.
Julee 18:37
It's a big question. I know. I'm sorry. I'm going a little off script here.
Alisar 18:43
So the Mediterranean diet here in the US is like, you know, advertised for being heart healthy and for diabetics and for people who are on diets and blah, blah, blah. So it doesn't sound very appetizing. Or at least for me, when I hear it's for a heart healthy diet, like I'm like, Okay, no, but Mediterranean diet really is just bursting with flavor. It's beautiful. It's colorful, it has so much flavor, texture, and it's it just brings a lot of satiety for a lot of people. And it's so versatile in that you have a lot of vegan dishes, we have a lot of vegetarian dishes, and we have a lot of you know, meat based dishes. So it really just, it fits all of the diets perfectly. And so what I want from at least toum or Simon Foods, our company is to bring that into the regular market and just not think of it as a specialty food anymore. Just as like you know something that you buy off the store like something just to incorporate it in people's lives more. So that you don't have to go to like a specialty store to get your products, your middle eastern products. And another thing is that, you know, the population of Arab Americans in the United States is growing a lot. And they call the United States home. So what I want also is to help them feel like the United States is a home. And I think I would achieve that by them seeing toum, which is Middle Eastern, mostly Lebanese product, but a lot of the other countries use it for their cooking and as a condiment in their foods. And so if they see toum on the shelves, I think that would also make them feel more at home, you know, to see something that is so important in their culture and their diet to be just on the regular shelf like right next to your ketchup. And I think this month is the Arab American Heritage Month, or I think it was April. And so it's very fitting to just bring that up, because it was the Arab American Heritage Month. And so yeah, just wanted to point that out, too.
Julee 21:29
Yeah. I mean, that's, that's beautiful. I love that that's your mission, I think we all, especially those who have moved here from a foreign country, we all kind of seek that sense of comfort and home. So hearing you talk about how your products can really do that, for many Arab Americans is really beautiful, because it just reminds me of, you know, how it feels to travel and then hear someone speak your language. It does make you very happy, like even when I was living in New York City. And there's not a huge, I'm Vietnamese, and there's not a huge Vietnamese population in New York. Once in a while, when I did hear someone speak Vietnamese, it was such a bright moment for me in the day where it's just like, oh, my gosh, I heard another Vietnamese person. So yeah, it gives me that sense of home and in the same way that you just described.
Alisar 22:32
Yeah, I think it's really important for somebody to, especially for immigrants, because I mean, I think they really have had tough lives. I mean, it's hard to move away from your country, everything that you know, the people you love, to come here and start a life. So I also find it really comforting when I hear somebody speak Arabic or when I see even hummus on the shelves. I'm like, oh hummus, it just makes me feel like we're integrating really well in this society. We're being accepted. And we're being given the opportunity to show how beautiful and flavorful and tasteful our culture is. And so I think that's really important, too.
Julee 23:27
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time today, sharing this story. Like I said, You guys have done so much in five months. I'm excited to see where you go with Simon Foods. I am sure in a year, you'll be everywhere, considering you've already done so much. But I'm also excited to try the product. And I hope you'll keep in touch. And I'll definitely follow your journey.
Alisar 23:56
Definitely. Thank you so much for hearing our story and getting in touch with us. And if you have any other questions, just feel free to email me and I'll answer back whenever I see it. So if there's anything missing from this interview.

Julee 0:20
Well, I would love to start kind of before you started, Boon. What was your professional journey like leading up to the founding of the company?
Max 0:30
I've always just cooked - I started when I was like, 13 I've always been cooking in restaurants. I would choose up at restaurants depending on the cuisine. So I can kind of learn everything. From savory, to pastry, Italian to South American. I've just cooked in restaurants my whole life.
Julee 1:04
And did you go to school for for cooking, or did you learn directly in your work at restaurants?
Max 1:13
I tried out culinary school for a year. But I already was cooking before that in restaurants. And I decided to just stick with learning at restaurants.
Julee 1:28
What kind of restaurants Did you work in?
Max 1:34
When I was in Atlanta, I've worked in like Italian, South American, Asian. And then when I moved to Los Angeles, I worked in like Spanish restaurants like The Bazaar, I worked at Inc. Republique. Steakhouses. Boba shops, like I wanted to learn everything.
Julee 1:58
Wow. You did really move around, huh?
Max 2:01
Yeah, I did it just so I can kind of like get an idea of how everything worked. I didn't want to limit myself.
Julee 2:17
And was that to see which type of cuisine appealed the most to you? Or what was your goal when you were trying all these different types of restaurants, in terms of cooking in them and learning the ways of the restaurants?
Max 2:32
I just kind of wanted to be able to combine everything, but I've always known I wanted to open up a ton of different concepts and types of businesses dealing with food. So I wanted to learn from all of them because I haven't yet but I know I've always wanted to open up something like a boba shop, slash cafe situation. I've also always wanted to do like steak house. I've always wanted to do French food. I have a restaurant called Camphor. Now. It's a little French bistro in the arts district. But and I'm hoping to open more restaurants too, along with having Boon Sauce.
Julee 3:26
Your restaurant's name is Camp?
Max 3:29
Camphor - C-A-M-P-H-O-R
Julee 3:34
Okay, awesome. And you said it's a bistro.
Max 3:37
Yeah, it's a French bistro in the arts district.
Julee 3:41
So you're running that restaurant and you're running Boon as well.
Max 3:45
Yeah.
Julee 3:46
Okay, wonderful. So what, what kind of got you to the founding of Boon? Was that based on experience you had in one of the restaurants or is there another story there?
Max 3:59
I mean, it's spicy food, chili oil, and my dad is Thai. So growing up, like I was just eating tons of spicy foods like chili. And he always loved collecting chili sauces and hot sauces and our refrigerator would just be stocked with them. So I really fell in love with all the chili oils. So I would crave like I would try to go to like Cantonese restaurants just so I can eat chow fun. Just as much chili oil on it as possible because for me that was like the best vessel or like fried rice with a ton of chili oil at like this food court and Atlanta. And there's this point of time. While I was I think I was like 24 I was at home kind of in between jobs and I are like, I think, in a week I had like two jars of the Lao Gan Ma chili oil.
Julee 5:12
Oh, wow, I know that brand.
Max 5:15
Yeah, I was like, well, I need to maybe chill out, or at least, like, maybe I can make this myself. Because I ate so much of it. I was like, I needed spicier now and like all this, so I decided to try to make my own chili oil. And my parents love it, my friends loved it. And then I put it on the side burner for a bit, because I started a new job and was working again. And then later on, I picked it back up. And also I needed to pay rent. So I started doing these wonton pop ups and I was selling my chili oil during that. Then ever since then, my wife kind of convinced me like, you could probably sell it. Do something with this. And then we started doing it started like four years ago.
Julee 6:12
So your wife is your partner in the business as well?
Max 6:17
Yeah.
Julee 6:21
And when you created the recipe was the focus to make it spicier? Or what other differentiators did you want this chili oil to have compared to the others on the market?
Max 6:36
I had like a flavor in my mind that I really wanted to hit because I was cooking a lot of like Italian pastas at the time at home. And I was wanted a chili oil that wouldn't taste too Asian with the pastas. But would be able to be used on like Asian food as well and still tastes Asian - like more of like a hybrid chili oil. So I knew I wanted fennel seeds in it. But I wanted just enough of every ingredient. So it was like super savory, but very subtle. The flavors like there's no one flavor that stands out more than the other. Like chili is the most prominent, but then all the other spices and ingredients. They round everything else out. And it just tastes like very savory. So that was the whole goal of Boon Sauce.
Julee 7:40
So a really balanced flavor profile with all the different spices.
Max 7:46
Yeah
Julee 7:48
that's really interesting. Fennel seeds.. I don't think that other chili oils have that, right?
Max 7:54
Yeah, no.
Julee 7:57
So would you consider Boon Sauce more of a kind of Asian fusion or like you know, it's not strictly just Asian as you said right. It's very versatile.
Max 8:08
Yeah, I like to say it's like kind of the ketchup version because you can kind of use it in any cuisine because there's like the Mexican version like salsa macha. There's Italian - they use chili for their pizza. There's just like a ton of different versions.
Like originally Boon Sauce had like a lot of bonito in it. And it was very smoky. And I was going into more Japanese route but then after a few more renditions and versions, it became like the version that is today with little baby anchovies. I give it that umami savory now
Julee 9:04
Yeah, that sounds great. I'm not sure if you're familiar up in LA, of the restaurant Puesto. They have a few concepts all around Southern California but they have a chili oil there that's a black garlic that they put just like on tacos and things like that. And that's, to me the best part of the entire restaurant. Because when I go there, I just asked for a whole bowl of it and I put it on everything
Max 9:30
Sounds delicious.
Julee 9:32
Yeah, so I can see how your your sauce and do the same thing. You know, serving different types of ethnic cuisines.
Max 9:39
Yeah.
Julee 9:42
So I know you said your dad is Thai and you grew up eating chili oil with him throughout your childhood. Is there a specific memory that your sauce specifically brings back for you in terms of being in the kitchen with your dad or having dinner with your family?
Max 9:59
I don't think there's like a specific memory because I've just always grown up eating spicy foods. So there's like no, no hot condiment that we did not have. Just yeah, I've always just needed spicy flavors and hot foods with my dinners and meals.
Julee 10:28
Is that normal for Thai children to be very acquainted with spicy food and eating it early on?
Max 10:40
Yeah, I mean, I lived in Thailand for two years. In like 2019-2020. And I was cooking at a French restaurant, and there were a lot of Thai guests who would come in, and they would ask her like, a bowl of fresh chopped chilies with their food.
Julee 11:09
So spice is just like a very essential ingredient in Thailand?
Max 11:14
Yeah.
Julee 11:16
Gotcha. How long have you had Boon - when did you start?
Max 11:20
We started, like four and a half years ago. Actually we started before the pandemic, right before I left for Thailand.
Julee 11:36
Did your time in Thailand help with the research and development of Boon Sauce?
Max 11:42
No, Thailand, actually, because I was moving to Thailand and my wife and I were like, you know what, let's just launch the sauce and we'll just do it like on the side. Like while she's in the US. She'll do the sauce every now and then because she was supposed to fly to Thailand, like every two months, or every three months to hang out with me. But that didn't happen during the pandemic. So she ended up just growing Boon Sauce from here and then it got bigger and bigger. Because it was supposed to be kind of more just like a little side sauce business. And then it grew a lot bigger than we imagined.
Julee 12:37
And what was the plan for for launching - your like go to market strategy? What did your wife do? Or what did you do to kind of get the word out there?
Max 12:48
Originally, we just started sending a ton of sauce to all these chefs that I knew, and friends and I was like, Hey guys, I have a product. Just try it out. There were some people who I guess knew I was launching a sauce. Because I got some press earlier that year from restaurant called Nightshade. I was the CDC for that restaurant. And we got a couple of awards. So that kind of helped push Boon Sauce. Got it?
Julee 13:33
Yeah, so you're working at that restaurant, they got press, and you mentioned Boon Sauce in the article?
Max 13:40
Yeah, it was kind of like an ongoing thing since I already had the press like I was doing articles and stuff. And then we eventually we launched the sauce before moving to Thailand. And we sent it to all these chefs and also editors and just try to get in as many hands as possible.
Julee 14:03
And the shops that you sent it to were they just friends or contacts that you had made in the restaurant industry?
Max 14:11
The first couple of shops, I think, actually only one shop was from like an industry person that I knew. All the other shops just happened or naturally. Originally we were only doing online sales too, we didn't really do wholesale. And then wholesale was a little later and yeah, and now we're still slowly growing, we're in a few shops nationwide. But the bulk of our sales are online through our website.
Julee 14:51
When you started were you and your wife just making the sauce at home like as a cottage food business or did you have a shared kitchen? Or how did you start making the sauces for distribution?
Max 15:08
Originally, like the first eight batches or so I would make it at whichever restaurant I was at. Like I started making this sauce actually, like seven years ago, and then over the course of three years, I would kind of tweak it and change it up, and hone it in and then on the off days at whatever restaurant I was at I would make a batch, and each batch was around like 280 jars. And then I would try to sell those. And then we use that money to kind of grow, get bigger. And then eventually, when I left to Thailand, the month before I left, I set up with a co packer and taught them the recipe - did everything there. And then now our sauce is just made at the copacker and packed there.
Julee 16:12
In terms of what marketing strategy or tactic you found to be most beneficial for Boon Sauce. Is there one in particular that really kind of hit it off for you guys?
Max 16:26
I think the best is just having people taste it. We don't blast it out like crazy. We just pretty much like anyone I see, I try to have a jar on me or in the car. We just get it out. I think that's the best way for us to gain traction, just having people taste the sauce.
Julee 16:51
So it's mostly word of mouth for you?
Max 16:53
Yeah.
Julee 16:55
That's awesome. That's the cheapest, most cost effective marketing tactic.
Max 17:00
And I love how it's kind of like, it feels like everyone's like, little secret. They're like, Oh, yeah, I've been using this for the past a year to their friends. Like, it's fun like that.
Julee 17:12
Yeah, right. Because there's no other sauce like it that really has those diverse flavors in it.
Max 17:19
Yeah.
Julee 17:23
So you've had this company for almost five years now - Is there a specific high during that journey or low point that comes to mind for you?
Max 17:34
No, I mean, everything is like we're just growing. And learning from everything. I'm trying to take in as much as we can. It feels like it's just the beginning. We're still a really small company. And yeah, like everything kind of feels new. And yeah, like new and fresh. Like we're just learning.
Julee 18:07
Like, there's a long journey ahead?
Max 18:09
Yeah.
Julee 18:11
Do you think part of that kind of low pressure feeling is because you also have your restaurant and you've got your hands in a few different things?
Because I know with some people, if they put all their savings, for example, and it's a lot more pressure, and it can, you know, the lows can feel really low and the highs can feel really high when it comes to the ups and downs of the business?
Max 18:47
I guess, yeah.
I mean, we do feel like if you like, you know, the ups and downs of business, like financially, yes. Like, we do feel those, but it's like, it's all part of the process. And you need the lows to kind of push you to, you know, drive the business forward and the highs - we try not to like focus on highs too much because we know we need to grow, because we're still so small.
Julee 19:21
Well, that's a good perspective.You got to have that optimism as an entrepreneur.
Max 19:27
Yeah.
Julee 19:29
Is your wife also your partner in the restaurant or is she full time Boon Sauce?
Max 19:36
She's full time Boon Sauce.
Julee 19:37
So in terms of your long term vision for the company, I know you said that feels like it's just the beginning, where do you see Boon Sauce in 5, 10 or 20 years and what's your kind of mission for the company?
Max 19:56
Um, we want to do a lot more products. I want to bring in more of my other expertise like pastry, sweets, and stuff into Boon. And not just have it be a chili oil company. I'm working on a couple of new skus at the moment.
And yeah, we want to have like a brick and mortar spot and do just a lot more fun projects, like do something different than a lot of the other chili oil, hot sauce companies right now. And just have fun with it. That's the main thing
Julee 20:41
With the new skus, are you going to focus still on Asian fusion? Or are you going to open it up to really any type of food or beverage product moving forward?
Max 20:56
Just anything that I think I can do exceptionally well. Because I really want to have products that are really high quality for someone's kitchen. I just want people to have just really nice tasting condiments and items in their pantry.
Julee 21:26
Well, you definitely have had the experience to create a lot of different things with all the restaurants you've been in.
Max 21:34
Yeah.
Julee 21:37
Do you find that Boone Sauce that had a particular impact on like the Asian community or Thai community with kind of making chili oils and those types of flavors more accessible?
Max 22:00
I'm pretty low-key, like I keep my head down. So I don't really know what's going on outside too much. But I do know like, especially in like the food industry, people are always eating Boon and I didn't even know that. Like, we get new cooks all the time. They're like, wait, that's your sauce. Like we have it in our kitchen. Like, so I think it's really fun. In Southern California, we don't feel like we're as popular as we are. So it's always nice and like surprising when everyone like just walking around or meeting new people that are like, oh, like we actually have the jar and it's not just Asian people too, it's everyone.
Julee 23:00
So it's just touching lives, you know, everywhere, regardless of ethnic background.
Max 23:07
Yeah.
Julee 23:09
Well, that's wonderful. I mean, you know, you're very humble, but when I was doing research on Boon Sauce, you guys are definitely in a lot of media outlets. And you know, a lot of people have a lot of great things to say about you and your product.
Max 23:22
Thank you

Julee 0:03
I would love to just take a few steps back to hear what your professional journey was like leading up to the founding of Bo-Yi.
Tiffany 0:17
I started my career in finance. I worked as an oil and gas investment banker out in Texas. I was born and raised in Texas. Thought I was gonna stay in Houston forever. And very quickly into the job I realized I wasn't very passionate about that industry. After a couple years, I moved to San Francisco to become an agriculture investor. I really love food. And while I was doing investment banking, I spent a lot of my free time just researching about healthy food. The lifestyle was a little bit intense for me, and because of that, I suffered from some health issues that a lot of doctors couldn't really solve. And so I spent a lot of my free time just trying to figure out what was going on with my body. The intense lifestyle was not great. I was getting hives out of nowhere, I took food allergy tests, and I was allergic to everything. The doctors didn't really know what to do. But one doctor told me to eat food that my ancestors ate, to try to fuel my body. And I thought that was really odd. But I turned to Chinese medicine and a lot of the Asian herbs that my mom gave me growing up being Cantonese American. That's how I got reconnected to all the Asian herbs and fruits I grew up with. And again, in my free time just really spent a lot of time researching about healthy foods. That's how I ended up in agriculture. I invested in multiple types of crops – oranges, table grapes, blueberries, tree nuts, spent a lot of time in Central Valley. It's really awesome to understand where our food comes from. And a lot of our farms are sustainable, family grown farms, and if they weren't, we'd try to get them there. So I did that for three years and ended up going to school because I really wanted to understand the more operational side and downstream part of food and beverage. And so I spent two years at Yale, getting my MBA during the pandemic. So that got halted and I ended up starting Bo-Yi because it was more just a passion project and a pandemic project. But I really wanted to share all the herbs and fruits that I grew up with and also had helped me with my health issues a few years back. And I noticed a lot of other superfoods from other cultures becoming very popular in the US, like turmeric and acai and quinoa and I thought, there's so many superfoods that Asian Americans have been eating for 1000s of years. But we don't really even talk about it and it stays in our Asian mom's pantry. So I wanted to create a brand that gave a spotlight and platform to these really incredible herbs but actually don't taste really bad contrary to popular belief and I wanted to formulate beverages and drinks to show people that they're not only very good for you, but it tastes really good. So that was the beginning of Bo-Yi. And since then we launched three ready-to-drink beverages using very popular and my favorite Asian foods - jujube, hawthorn berry and chrysanthemum. And then a few months ago, we launched an instant beverage, an Asian superfood powder blend, featuring three other very popular superfoods - ginseng, ginger and goji berry. So that's Bo-Yi.
Julee 0:22
Yeah, that's awesome. Well, it's definitely something the market needs because like you said – I'm Vietnamese American, so I grew up drinking a lot of these teas as well – and you're one of the first that I've seen in American markets that represent those flavors.
Tiffany 5:26
Yeah, it's surprising, right? I was doing it at an acupuncture studio, and so many people recognize jujube tea. They're like, "Oh, I make this for myself at home all the time, it takes forever". And that's why there wasn't an easier option for this - it's such a popular herb.
Julee 5:52
Totally, I think we use it in Vietnamese desserts as well - the jujube.
Tiffany 5:56
Oh really? It's a very versatile fruit.
Julee 6:02
So when the doctor told you to eat the foods that your ancestors ate? Did you go back and think about the stuff that your mom made you right away? Or how did you make that connection?
Tiffany 6:16
Well it helped that my mom was in the room with me and the doctor so she said, "Oh my gosh, I know exactly what you should take". So we did a lot of soups and she used her own traditional Chinese, Leong family recipes. And she would make a lot of soups, a lot of herbal drinks for me, and I would bring it to work. She put it in a canister or sometimes she'd even drop it off at my office. It was really, really sweet. And I just loved it. I thought it tasted amazing. And, over time, my body stopped freaking out and reacting to every little thing. I also cleaned up my diet. So it wasn't just herbs alone. It was a whole lifestyle change, but it helped me a lot. I was no longer getting stomach aches. And I think because I'm Asian American, I'm sure you can maybe relate to this, and a lot of other Asian Americans relate to this, but as you get older, I feel like we're all trying to get closer and get in touch with who we actually are. And drinking these really Chinese herbal soups, it's something that me and my sister used to call witches brew, we would make fun of it, we're like, "oh, that's so Chinese". And so I did do that and then learning how to make it myself, go to the Chinese pharmacy and actually learn about the benefits of these herbs myself. It just made me feel like I really judged myself like, "Oh, this is so Chinese". But I also loved it at the same time, you know?
Julee 8:09
Yeah, I think when we were growing up, it wasn't as cool. But we learned to appreciate it as we grow into adulthood.
Tiffany 8:19
Absolutely.
Julee 8:22
So I know you said your mom's making this for you. You know, the soups, the teas, since you were a kid. And I feel like that's the love language of Asian parents. Or maybe it's all parents where it's like, "please eat food, eat fresh. Let me cut you some fruit." Is there a specific memory in mind for you when you think about the teas that you've created now - does it bring you back to like a specific moment or story in your childhood?
Tiffany 8:56
Really interesting question. I don't know if there's a specific moment just because I think drinking soups and drinking herbal teas, we call it leung cha which is cooling tea to cool down your body – excess heat – it was just something that is so part of our family tradition that the whole creating it for other people just feels really special and sharing this part of my childhood and my culture is very special. So it would be like after dinner, we would always drink herbal soup. And it was very intricate soups too. As an adult, I sometimes have it as a meal but you know after a huge meal with five courses that my mom would cook from scratch, she would also, in addition, have this amazing herbal soup that she was cooking on the stove for five hours with 20 different herbs. It's a lot of love and time and I didn't realize at the time, you know, I was like "ugh, my mom is making me drink this strange soup." But making it as an adult now, I'm like "Oh my gosh, this takes a lot of effort". So my mom did this not just because it's tradition but she knew that this would be very nutritious for us. So even though it's an extra five hours of her busy day on top of all the other stuff that she had to do, it was so important for her to make sure we're healthy. Also, when I do come home, my family is in Texas, so whenever I do visit home, in the afternoons, that's where we would have herbal drinks and desserts. And there's always something on the stove brewing. And I don't know, I just loved coming home when I knew there was something yummy for me to eat. It felt very special.
Julee 11:07
So you guys have a version of your afternoon tea as well, it's not just a British thing?
Tiffany 11:16
I don't know if it's a Chinese thing. It might just feel a family thing. But yeah, we drink tea, we also have herbal desserts, like peach resin jelly, snow fungus dessert which you can eat it as a dessert but we just put it all in.
Julee 11:39
Right. I feel like our generation doesn't cook to that extent anymore. Like we're not, you know, rendering bone broth over five hours, we go to the store and we just grab it. But I think you're right, that was definitely a way for our parents to show love and care for us and make sure that we're healthy.
Tiffany 12:03
I mean, on a good weekend when I'm not busy, one of my favorite things to do is cook for hours and actually make bone broth for hours.
Julee 12:16
Oh, you do it now?
Tiffany 12:17
Sometimes, sometimes, yeah. But you know, it's like once a month, we just don't have the time. But we should make the time.
Julee 12:37
When it comes to the Bo-yi products, do you find that it's the flavors or the ingredients that make it different from the other teas and products on the market? Or what would you say the differentiators are?
Tiffany 12:54
I think the actual teas themselves, I think we're the only, aside from maybe the chrysanthemum tea, we're the only hawthorne and jujube teas out there. So that in itself makes us very different. And, we're creating a new category, which isn't always easy, but it's something that people grew up drinking and people are very curious about as well just looking into Cantonese and Chinese culture. So the ingredients are definitely different. We brew our teas with whole herbs, organic, pesticide-free herbs, with no official sweeteners or preservatives, and I'm really proud about the way that we were able to formulate it to be very tasty, while keeping the profile, while also making it shelf stable. Just allow it to get into people's hands a little bit easier. And it still tastes really good. You know, people think Chinese medicine or Chinese herbs like that's disgusting or that's, what I used to call it, witches brew, bu tactually, people will taste it and they're like "this tastes really good". And at first it sounded like an insult like, "Oh, you thought that would be disgusting". But they're like, "oh, it tastes really good. It's very light. It's not too sweet" and not too sweet is the ultimate Asian compliment so we're really grateful for that.
Julee 14:28
Right, that is big. Asian desserts are far less sweet than Western desserts. So when you think about your go to market strategy, or really any marketing strategy that you've implemented so far for Bo-yi, what have you found to be the most successful in growing the company or just getting it recognized?
Tiffany 14:58
Yeah, so initially we are going after the health conscious crowd in New York, we sold in a few health food stores, and then also selling to Asian Americans, you know, at H Mart and other Asian American grocery stores. And, it's interesting, because this is something that I learned, for Asian Americans, it would be like, "Oh, I know exactly what this is. I used to eat this all the time." And they have, but it takes a little bit of explanation, a lot of Asian people that I talk to, they're like, "What's hawthorn berry?" Oh, you know what hawthorn berry is, it's haw flakes, it's a berry. So it takes a little education still amongst Asian Americans, but what I found is the acupuncture TCM-curious crowd really loves the products. These are people that maybe didn't grow up, or some have, grown up eating these herbs, or even learning about what acupuncture is, but they've taken the time to educate themselves, and they're going to Chinatown, they're buying Chinese herbs, and it takes a lot of time. And when they find our product, it saves them a lot of time, it tastes amazing, and they know the benefits of the herb. So I would say the acupuncture curious crowd and also the Asian Americans. It's funny, it's not just Asian Americans that resonate with the flavors or story. It's a lot of children of immigrants. I'll speak to people where their parents weren't from Asia, and they would taste the drinks and be like, "Oh, this tastes like home", you know, I'm like, "okay, where's home?" Like, "Ecuador." They say this tastes like the stuff my grandma made. So something about these herbs that doesn't just play to Asian palettes. It's a lot of different cultures as well.
Julee 17:35
Makes them feel like they're home?
Tiffany 17:37
Exactly.
Julee 17:39
Yeah, I love that. How did you find the acupuncture crowd by the way? It's very niche. And it's great, but how did you make that connection?
Tiffany 17:51
I think just doing events with an acupuncture group. We did an event last night, we did one with them earlier this year with WTHN - an upscale acupuncture chain in New York City. So yeah, the kind of people going in and out of the clinic and also some people following them on Instagram found us and personally excited about us. And then also just working with local acupuncturists who share with their clients as well. And of course, social media, TikTok and Instagram reels.
Julee 18:40
Was it your idea to start reaching out to those acupuncturists? Or did they find you or did you just kind of come across each other through an event?
Tiffany 18:49
I think we just came across each other over time and then realized that it or I realized that it made sense. It just kind of happened naturally over time. It's a place that I didn't think to start with but makes a lot of sense.
Julee 19:09
Yeah, it just came about organically. So throughout your startup journey, I think I read that you started the company in 2020. Right? So it's been three years?
Tiffany 19:25
Yeah, I worked on it part time while in school. And yeah, I guess three years since I first came up with the concept and then we've been in the market for about a year and a half.
Julee 19:41
Okay, awesome. Do you have a specific or can you name a specific high or low throughout that journey during the first year and a half?
Tiffany 19:51
Where do I begin? I think the high, it was really exciting to finally get it launched with the pandemic and seeing it on shelves, and seeing strangers buy it. That's crazy to me and seeing it on shelves, you know, you're looking at a formula which took a long time to master, the design – which I have a finance background, I have no creative design background – and seeing that it looks amazing on shelves, it just felt really special. And you know, not just for myself, but I think hearing other people tell me and how much they like the drinks and hearing strangers talk about it, it makes me feel happy to make other people feel happy. I think that's been the best part of it all. And of course, in addition to that, I selfishly like conquering all the milestones, leading up to that was just a great feeling as well, not knowing anything about formulation, figuring out how to formulate this shelf stable product that tastes really good still, with actual real ingredients, and no artificial sweeteners or preservatives is really great. Yeah, it's all good.
Julee 21:43
Yeah, it's not easy.
Tiffany 21:46
Yeah, it's not easy. It's just different. You know, it's different from what I've been doing. And in terms of lows, it's something that I haven't done before, and we're creating a new category. So that in and of itself was very, very challenging. To have people find us, they love us and usually repurchase from us, but I think we're being patient.
Julee 22:36
When you say the lows, or one of the lows was just the challenges that you faced creating this new category – do you mean that you just encountered a lot of people that didn't understand the products? And it was just a lot of customer education?
Tiffany 22:58
Yeah, exactly. I don't know if that's a low per se. It's just like a continuous challenge. On top of starting something from scratch and we're learning over time.
Julee 23:22
Got it. So how did you overcome that challenge? Is it just a process of continually and consistently putting out content? Or, how do you usually face that objection? If you're, for example, doing a tasting and someone is like, "Oh, I've never encountered this flavor or these ingredients before?"
Tiffany 23:43
Yeah, that's a good question. It's something that is continuous, like you said, so a lot of testing content, like you said, doing in-person tasting events, and actually speaking to people face-to-face has been really helpful. And that just tells us who we need to be talking to 1 and then 2, how to maybe describe what we've been describing a little bit differently, tweak that method.
Julee 24:15
I see. And moving forward as you continue to grow Bo-yi, what's your long term vision for the company? I know I read that you wanted to make sure the company honors your Asian ancestry. I know health is a big piece of it. Where do you see the company in like 5, 10, 20 years and what kind of impact do you want it to have?
Tiffany 24:41
Yeah, I think the grand vision of Bo-yi is just to be the brand that represents Asian superfoods and there's well over 100 different Asian superfoods that we have the opportunity to produce. So far we've introduced 6. And a lot of other herbs are hidden in the drinks as well that we don't highlight as much, but I think it's a big opportunity to share with other cultures and even within our own culture about these herbs and its benefits, and its great taste. And if I see five other jujube teas on shelves in five years that means we're doing something right, I guess. Yeah, I think just anything to show this part of our culture and make it more well known the same way that other superfoods of other cultures have gotten the spotlight in the last few years.
Julee 25:54
Yeah, making these flavors and ingredients and health benefits more accessible to everyone?
Tiffany 26:00
Exactly.
Julee 26:03
Well, congratulations on your success so far. I can't believe you've only been in business for a year and a half. Seems like you've made such great strides. And I'm excited to see what else you do with the company new products and just see you guys grow.
Tiffany 26:20
Thank you so much, Julee. Thanks for those kind words.

Julee 0:04
As I mentioned in the email to you, I've tried your pandan jam and I just love it. So that's like our discovered you. It's so good. And it's a little hard to find pandan-flavored things.
Nigel 0:21
That's true. I mean, I think personally, a lot of people doesn't know how to work with Panda. And yeah, you know, I think that's the problem.
Julee 0:30
Hmm, yeah, it's a fairly new flavor to the US market.
Nigel 0:35
It's true.
Julee 0:38
So, I would love to hear a little bit about your journey leading up to the founding of Moon Man. Can you tell me a little bit about what your background was like?
Nigel 0:48
Well, I'm a designer. So I run a design studio in New York City is called Corse Design Factory. And I think this year is like 14 years now. And then, Moon Man actually is a project by accident. So one of our clients is Queens Night Market, which is like a night market is in Queens, New York City. And then it happened every Saturday from spring all the way until Halloween. And they come to us, they needed help with their branding website and refining their sponsorship packets, and this and that. So we were helping them on a lot of things. And that was during the year three of Queens Night Market, I believe. And then I always wanted to have a food business on the side for the longest time. So I told John, who runs Queens Night Market says, you know, hey, give me a booth, basically, give me a space at a Queens Night Market. And then he was like, Well, you're a Design Firm - what are you going to do? I'm like, Look, if you're giving it to me, it's my problem. Then he gave me the booth. And then now I ended up with with the problem that you know, I have an empty space at the Queens Night Market that I can fill with whatever I want to sell, basically.
Julee 2:18
And is it hard to get into that market?
Nigel 2:20
Oh, yeah. Yeah. The Queens Night Market receives hundreds and hundreds of applications from all over the city of people trying to find their and they only select 50.
Julee 2:35
Oh, wow. That's incredible.
Nigel 2:38
Yeah. But you know, I mean, having them as a client. And of course, I get a little bit of an edge. So I ended up with an empty booth. And then I decided that I want to sell something that I grew up with, that I couldn't find in New York City. And then I decided to sell basically a kue, which is an Indonesian, well, Southeast Asian sweet snacks, basically. A lot of them are made with glutinous rice and coconut milk and all kinds of sweets. And then yeah, we didn't have a lot of good kue in New York City. So I decided to just make one. And then we started with coconut pancake, you know, and of course, being somebody who's inexperienced with food, or food business in general, like the first night that we were there people were waiting for hours for our coconut pancake.
Julee 3:37
Oh, wow. Are those the green pancakes?
Nigel 3:40
No, these are the white pancake.
Julee 3:46
Okay, gotcha. So you were on-demand right away?
Nigel 3:47
It was on demand from day one. And so we kept growing the menu, you know, we sold steamed cassava at one point, we sold pandan cake. And then these days we sell sticky rice with kaya jam, and then cassava cake along with our coconut pancakes. And fast forward, like how many years now we've been doing it now at the Queens Night Market, we're still doing it just for the sake of having fun essentially. But at Queens Night Market, within six hours, we're serving over 1000 units. So the capacity becomes like really, really high.
Julee 4:36
Was that on your first night?
Nigel 4:38
No, no, no, no, that was like that's the capacity now. On the first night we used to sell only like 2-300 a night, 2-300 pieces a night but now it's like over 1000 in six hours.
Julee 4:51
Wow.
Nigel 4:52
Yeah. And then during pandemic, you know, I had a shopping in the Lower East Side but during pandemic we couldn't run so we had to close it. And we had to pay for it at some point because like, we can't just not do anything for the entire year. And then I had this idea of having kaya jam for the longest time because I feel like it's the correct progression for Moon Man. And then yeah, we started producing kaya jam. And then that's what you taste on one of them.
Julee 5:26
And were you already selling kaya jams at the market?
Nigel 5:30
It was the kaya jam was on one of our desserts. Yeah, it was one of the elements of our dessert.
Julee 5:42
And had people been asking you to kind of sell it in like a package form at that point?
Nigel 5:50
No, no one ever thought of it. So it just like okay, well, I mean, if I sell it to you, you're going to like it.
Julee 5:59
I love that confidence. Okay, so you had the booth at the market? Sounds like you still have it now. Right?
Nigel 6:09
We still have it. Yeah, we're still there. We're still there.
Julee 6:14
So you had the booth at the Queens Night Market, you're selling a lot of those Indonesian and Southeast Asian desserts. Yeah. And then COVID hit and you decided to launch Moon Man?
Nigel 6:26
Yeah. So COVID hit, we expand. Instead of shutting it down.
Julee 6:33
Good move. Everyone else was doing the opposite.
Nigel 6:35
Exactly. We're like, Okay, well, we're doubling down on this.
Julee 6:41
So it was kind of like you, the starting of the company was out of necessity because of COVID. But then it worked out really well for you.
Nigel 6:50
It was not out of necessity. It was out of hobby, honestly. Because when we started with Moon Man, it was five years before COVID. Yeah.
Julee 7:05
You started at the night market five years before COVID?
Nigel 7:08
Exactly. So it was a hobby more than it is actually you know, trying to run it as a business. And of course as things grows, you know, we see potential - Why not run it as a business?
Julee 7:23
Yeah, that makes sense. And now you're selling online? I know I think I specifically got you got your jam through Weee!
Nigel 7:33
Yeah, wholesale nationwide.
Julee 7:39
Okay, wonderful. And then you also sell the, the packaged jams in addition to the desserts at the night market?
Nigel 7:45
Yes.
Julee 7:47
Awesome. And so now when you think of kind of the the pandan jams and the ube, does it bring back specific memories to where you grew up, your family or, or your background?
Nigel 8:06
Well, I grew up in Indonesia. I mean, I grew up on all these sweet snacks, you know, I've never been quite a fan of the Western dessert as much. Like, carrot cake doesn't do much for me, you know? Like it's just okay. The one that I crave for are like the kue and like the grilled banana that you get on the street. Those are the stuff that I grew up with and those are the ones that I miss the most. And then I don't eat a lot of sweets also, you know, even though I run a dessert shop. So if I decided to eat sweets, it better be something that I like, you know, so might as well.
Julee 8:58
Right? That makes sense. Yeah, I'm the same way with sweets. I'm not. I find that Western sweets are a little bit too sweet for me usually. Because, you know, I was born in Vietnam. And so I grew up with a lot of like, Vietnamese desserts as well. So yeah, I understand where you're coming from there.
Nigel 9:18
Yeah, so that's that's basically it. You know, like that's what I like to eat. And that's what I decided to sell. You know, I'm slowly introducing New York City to what I grew up with.
Julee 9:33
Did your parents ever make those types of desserts at home?
Nigel 9:37
No, actually, my parents doesn't cook. I grew up both my parents doesn't cook like there's no polite way to say it, but they're just useless in the kitchen. Like if they come visit me in New York City, I'm actually cooking for them. It's not like they're cooking for me. I have extra homework if they're visiting me, you know. But yeah, I grew up in a family where my parents doesn't cook, you know, because they're always busy running a business, you know, and then at some point, I remember when I was a kid, I asked my mom, like, how come you know, all my friends' moms are cooking, and how come you don't cook? And then my mom was like, Well, I'm running a business, I would rather run the business and make money and buy something than actually me spending time in the kitchen. My time is worth more in the business than it is in the kitchen. Like, okay, that's a fair assessment.
Julee 10:39
Yeah, she's a business woman. It takes up your whole life, as I'm sure you know now.
Nigel 10:44
Yeah. And then now I realized that well, after many, many years, I moved to United States and then she visited me at some point. And then she's helping me in the kitchen. And I was like, oh, okay, so she definitely doesn't know how to cook.
Julee 11:06
What kind of business did she run?
Nigel 11:08
We ran a rice shop.
Julee 11:12
Ok, back in Indonesia?
Nigel 11:13
Yeah, we sold rice in Indonesia. That's basically our bread and butter. So I mean, from time to time, we have sugar and flours and stuff, too. But we sell rice mostly in wholesale.
Julee 11:27
Got it? Did you learn a lot of your business acumen from your parents?
Nigel 11:32
Well, I grew up in the store. I mean, my family is wasn't you know, I didn't grew up in a rich family. So I grew up in the shop. I mean, back then, when I was still in like elementary school and stuff, like school started at seven, finished, like around noon, and then I have 15-20 minutes to eat lunch. And then I have to work in the shop. Although until the shop closes, which is around three and six, go home, take a shower, eat dinner, and then do my homework. And then the next day, we start all over again. So that was my life.
Julee 12:14
And how did you feel about that as a kid?
Nigel 12:18
Of course, I hated it when I was a kid. Because like, how come my friends was able to hang out in the mall and I'm stuck in the shop, you know, counting inventory, running bookkeeping. Like I was able to run the shop bookkeeping when I was still like, 12. Like, I understand which numbers goes to which columns. Up to that point, yeah. But yeah, I hated it as a kid. But then now that I run my own business, you know, the learning curve wasn't as steep. Yeah. So yeah, I found it useful, you know?
Julee 13:03
Yeah. So you were able to learn a lot just from being in that environment all the time growing up.
Nigel 13:11
Yeah. I understand about the concept of like, stock keeping the bookkeeping and understand like, you know, balance sheets. And yeah, that's very important, which is something that you don't learn in the design school, nor that you learn in a culinary school.
Julee 13:28
Yeah, right. You mostly just learn like the artistic side of things.
Nigel 13:34
Exactly.
Julee 13:37
So when you think about like Indonesian desserts, is it more just when you and your family would go out to eat or go to like a local bakery?
Nigel 13:46
No, that's more like stuff that I picked up after school on my way home. Yeah, school is out you know, there's always like a lot of like street vendors outside of school. A lot of them are selling these kind of snacks.
Julee 14:06
So you and your friends would just pick it up?
Nigel 14:09
Oh, yeah. And then they're always so cheap, right? I mean, even today, if you go to the traditional market, and then you're getting this kue lapis and you know this kind of stuff, they're like $1 sometimes less, sometimes like 70 cents 75 cents, you know, and it's delicious.
Julee 14:38
Does Indonesia have a big night market seen as well?
Nigel 14:43
Depends which area of Indonesia, In my city, there are like certain areas that have a night market that has like a bunch of vendors congregating in one area. A lot of like the big big cities probably will have it. But in the rural neighborhoods, you probably wouldn't see it as much.
Julee 15:08
I see. So I know with kaya jams, I'm sure one of your differentiators is just the flavors themselves and the product itself, because it's so different from any other type of jam that you see on the market. Do you have any other main differentiators that you find in your product that you don't really see in the market?
Nigel 15:36
Well, when I set it up one, Moon Man, I always wanted innovation to be the heart of it. The reason why that is, is because I feel like, even the last time I went back to Indonesia, I find less and less of these artisanal snacks and being sold on the street. Now you have to go deep into traditional markets to find them. And back then they were everywhere. They were literally everywhere. And then you can just buy it almost everywhere. And a lot of the desserts, well, some of the desserts that I had when I was a kid, I can't find it anymore. And it's getting harder and harder to find. And partially it is because the young people are not interested in it. That's number one. Number two also is that there's no innovation happening within the department. The same thing has been done over and over again throughout the years and throughout decades and centuries. But if there's no innovation, things can go stale, and ultimately, it's going to disappear. So I think it's very important to have a little bit of innovation to go with whatever you're doing. And I think this department of traditional snack can definitely use one. So in Moon Man, we actually do a lot of research and experimentation. Even with our Kaya jam, the first version of our Kaya jam can only last for two weeks in refrigeration, and then we refined our process. And now we're able to do it for three months. And then we refined it again. Now, if it's refrigerated it can last four or five months. And then we're working with the food laboratory and manufacturing tests factory in Denver to figure out how do we do it so that they can last for over a year without refrigeration. At the same time, I don't want to go to the route of many of our competitors. In order for them to have a shelf life, they're injecting it with a lot of artificial flavoring, injecting it with a lot of preservatives. And of course, they will last you know, at that point, and of course it will last but at the same time I feel like at that point, the product is not good anymore. Right? Yeah. I mean, we eat enough preservatives on a daily basis. I don't need to add more. Come on now. Right? So we're doing a lot of that kind of research and experimentation. So we work closely with food laboratory to figuring out how exactly. That's what has been running behind of whatever you see. on Moon Man out there. Behind the scenes, we're basically doing a lot of experiments.
Julee 18:52
Got it. So you're releasing these flavors from your childhood that aren't really accessible anymore. And you're using a lot of research and innovation to make sure that you're using the right ingredients and are able to have a higher shelf life, even without any preservatives or artificial stuff.
Nigel 19:15
Exactly, balance.
Julee 19:22
Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, like you said, it's so easy just to inject it with chemicals and have it last forever.
Nigel 19:28
Oh, yeah. If I go that route, we would have been done. Like, the research will take like a month. Yeah. Even less probably. Yeah, I didn't want to go that route because I still want a product that I can be proud of. And if I'm going that route I don't think I'm gonna be happy with that product. If I'm not happy with the product, then why bother doing it at that point?
Julee 19:57
That's right, it has to really connect to your values. So I'm curious, you mentioned that the kids aren't interested in those desserts that you grew up with. Where did this shift happen? Like, what are they more interested in now?
Nigel 20:15
Well, they're looking for whatever is trendy, right? I mean, like, what all young people do, they follow the trend more than people at my age. But yeah, I mean, when I was growing up, what's trendy was basically well, bubble tea, I guess. Bubble tea is like, still trendy until today. But a lot of like the Western desserts are, are more trendy, and up and coming compared to what you'll find in the traditional market. Like they find the stuff in the traditional market is just like old school, like something that their grandma is eating instead of them. So there is there is a lot of that shift in perspective, in a sense.
Julee 21:08
Got it. So do you find that what you're doing with Moon Man will contribute to preserving a bit of your culture through those those flavors?
Nigel 21:19
Well, I think the concept of preserving culture is a bit passed, and I'm not sure our contribution can actually, it might just be a drop in the ocean. But for the very least, at least it's preserved my memories.
Julee 21:43
Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. So I know you've been doing the Queens Night Market? How many years now? Is it six years?
Nigel 21:59
We started in 2017? So yeah, it's six years. Six years? Yeah.
Julee 22:08
Yeah. And then since 2020, you've had the packaged kaya jams. So that's been three years. I'm curious along the journey, was there a specific marketing tactic or strategy that you've found to be the most impactful when it comes to like, just kind of expanding the business and growing it?
Nigel 22:33
Um, well, I mean, I'm a designer. So I deal with branding on a daily basis. So essentially, what I'm trying to do with Moon Man is that we're trying to do the opposite of what everybody is doing. If you think about how ethnic food is being branded, usually they say, a terms or name of like, whatever the traditional name of the product is, and then they assimilate it into their brand name, and then they just go with that, right? And I didn't want to go that route. I mean, I've seen the formula being done so many times, because I'm so immersed in the branding industry, you know, so I just don't want to take the same formula - I just refused to. And then that's why the name is Moon Man is not like, you know, Indonesian kaya international or something. So, yeah, or I can call it Srikaya, which is Indonesian, also called Kaya Jams Srikaya. But yeah, I did not want to go that route. You know, I basically banned that concept. And then if, at some point, I realized that, well, if I remove the entire cultural context, you know, what we end up with is something nonsensical. But there is something liberating about it being nonsensical, because essentially, like we can metamorphasize the product into something else more exciting. And I had the idea you know, what, maybe if it's not from Indonesia, it's not from this world, maybe it's just a neighbor, which is the moon you know, so that's how the name Moon Man started.
Julee 24:16
And so it keeps you outside of that box?
Nigel 24:19
Exactly. So we don't want to be seen as an ethnic product, you know, even though our product is based on an ethnic cuisine. And then a lot of people are usually starting with marketing like Instagram, they start doing Instagram influencers and this and that, you know, start bribing everybody with free food. And from our end, we explicitly say from day one that we don't work with influencers. Like yeah, we also like put it on our website. In fact, like if you see under FAQ, we'll just say like, we don't work with influencers. And that ends up being a good thing for us. Because number one is that if people see that we don't work with influencers, that means whatever review that you read out there is real. So there is no doctoring, you know, they know that we're an honest company, you know, so we don't try to change up whatever bad reviews, and then you're basically like covering it up by bribing everybody to create a buzz, we don't do any of that. So, yeah, we're becoming more of a trustworthy company, because we don't work with influencers. We're doing a lot of this kind of opposites approach to whatever everybody else is doing. That's been working for us.
Julee 25:51
Wow. So how did you get the word out there about the kaya jams?
Nigel 25:56
Um, well, I mean, our product is good. Yeah, I mean, in, in marketing, there is a term called conversation capital, in the sense that you have to create a product and an experience that people can talk about it. So I mean, if it's not worth talking about, you cannot create a buzz. Doesn't matter what you do, you can bribe 5000 people with your product, if your product is not worth talking about, it's still not gonna do anything. So I ended up focusing more on how the experience of people getting their product more than actually about bribing people to talk about us. So if you go to our booth at the Queens Night Market, you can see the coconut pancake being made onsite, you can see blue torch action of sugar being caramelize and we're creating that kind of experience that it's a dessert, it's a show, it's storytelling all in one. And that kind of experience works, that makes people keep coming back to us year after year. Of course the product has to be good because if the product is bad, that's it, you know, like there's no way fixing it, like doesn't matter what you create, it's still not going to fix the product, right? But yeah, that's how my approach has been to Moon Man in marketing this. We just make ourselves a system that's worth talking about.
Julee 27:37
I see. So when you created the kaya jams, because at that point, the Queen's Night Market was shut down, right? You guys weren't there? So did you just announce it on your Instagram account?
Nigel 27:52
We announced it on Instagram. And then we start running small shops, like small online shops, and then we do local deliveries in New York City because everybody was craving something special.
Julee 28:06
Like through DoorDash? Or one of those delivery services?
Nigel 28:09
No, we delivered it to around New York City.
Julee 28:14
Oh, you did it personally?
Nigel 28:18
Yeah, all of our team did it, basically like we do a delivery run throughout New York City. And then yeah, I mean, everybody is not active so we can be active. Why not? You know? Yeah, the entire New York City is shut down. And people still want sweets even though they're staying at home watching TV and streaming Netflix, they still want sweets. So why not figure something out? You know, so if delivery service and are working, so we're doing it. You know, why not? We do noncontact delivery at that point. And we deliver all over New York City, we divided up the boroughs. So I remember like, Manhattan is only on Sunday. Because the traffic is not bad. So we can finish the route really, really quickly. And then on Friday, we do Queens and Brooklyn.
Julee 29:21
Were you guys doing it by car, by bike, by train?
Nigel 29:24
By car, by car. That way is you know, we've been doing that throughout the pandemic. So throughout the pandemic, we actually used it as our advantage.
Julee 29:35
Wow. So in the beginning I'm guessing it was just mostly your following on Instagram and then word of mouth kind of spread from there? And then with your partnerships and wholesale vendors, did you just reach out to them like Weee!?
Nigel 29:53
They reached out to us. We got featured on New York Times multiple times. In fact, like two days ago we got included in the AAPI guide from New York Times wirecutter.
Julee
Wow, congratulations.
Nigel
Oh, thank you. Yeah, we got a glowing review on our pandan jam. The press happens naturally. We never had to send out a press release or anything like that. We never had to do it. Because, again, we're doing it backwards than everybody. Because everybody would be sending out press releases and trying to get it written up. But for us, we just try to make us weird enough that it's actually worth talking about. Then the reporter will find us instead.
Julee
Did you say weird enough?
Nigel
Yeah.
Julee
Ok, I love that. So unique, and kind of an outlier of a company and it attracts people.
Nigel
Exactly. Exactly. Until today, our marketing budget is still zero. We never paid for marketing, we never paid for influencers, we never paid for a PR company. We don't work with PR companies but we got all this press. Because again, we're investing our brain power in creating a conversation capital.
Julee
That's incredible - zero dollars on marketing. That's usually every company's biggest spend.
Nigel
Oh yeah. Even a small PR agency would charge a small company like mine, it would be like $3000 a month to write press releases, do a little bit of photoshoots, this and that, and then sending it out to press. That's already $3000 a month right there. That's a salary for a person.
Julee
That's right. And especially for a tiny company.
Nigel
Exactly. I would rather spend that on labor and again, on creating experiences that are worth talking about. I think that's worth more.
Julee
Yeah, I agree. It sounds like you've had great accomplishments throughout the last 3-6 years. Do you have a specific moment that you would say that was the high of your startup journey, and a moment that maybe wasn't so good - that was the low of the journey.
Nigel
I'm always a big believer of this concept of there's no such thing as defeat, there's no such thing as failure. Like I have zero fear of failure, zero. When I started my design business, I started with $3500 in the bank and a laptop. That's all I had when I started Corse Design Factory. And then, when I started Moon Man, same concept. I started Moon Man with $2500 in investment. Entire Moon Man is $2500 of investment. I haven't added any money to Moon Man since its inception. So essentially what we have right now is all thanks to the $2500 of seed money that I put in in the beginning.
Julee
Was that your seed money?
Nigel
Yeah, that was my seed money. It's $2500, come on, it's not going to break anyone's bank. It's still the $2500 that grew until today. And yeah, I have zero fear of failure. I mean, if it doesn't work, then we'll try something else. What's the worse that can happen? No one's going to die.
Julee
So was your idea that if you run out of the $2500 then you would just shut the company down?
Nigel
Yeah, shut the company down and start something else. It's the bet essentially. It's a bet that I'm comfortable placing.
Julee
Right, it's a calculated risk on your end?
Exactly.
Julee
I know you said there's no fear of failure and you didn't have that much money to work from but I'm sure you put in a lot sweat, time and energy, right? Usually when founders don't have a lot of money, they have to make up for it in their own investment of time and energy?
Nigel
I mean, that's any business though. Regardless you have a lot of money or not, you still have to invest a lot of blood, sweat and tears. Because, here's the thing, I noticed how a lot of companies usually the founder is very hands off and most of the time the company is going to failure. Like you cannot run a taco shop, like a taqueria, and then just hire the chef to do the tacos, someone to do the tortillas, someone to do this and that. Sure your taco shop can run, but here's the thing, if your chef is sick, you have to replace him. If your tortilla person is sick or quit, you have to replace them. And the business still has to run. And if you're a business owner who doesn't know how your company is running, that's a big problem. And that's why a lot of businesses fail, especially small business, it's because they're not hands on enough.
Julee
So they kind of delegate too much, too soon?
Yeah. they delegate too much, too soon. They grow too fast - that's also the other issue. And when things fall apart, they don't know how to fix it. Then that's an issue and that's how businesses fail usually.
Julee
And are you still involved in the design firm?
Nigel
Oh yeah, it's my own firm. I cannot run away. It's still mine.
Julee
Do you have a specific vision or mission for Moon Man over the next 5, 10, 20 years?
Nigel
I just want to keep growing Moon Man. I want Southeast Asia flavors to have representation here to the very least in New York City. If it can be in the United States - great - but for the very least in New York City. If my product can change a couple of people's lives for the better, I'm happy already.
Julee
How do you see it influencing people's lives?
Nigel
Here's the thing, the expectation that people have about this concept of changing someone's life - it's always so grandeur. It's like oh, you're like donating kidneys to someone, or you're saving them from falling onto the tracks, you're donating blood or whatever. But here's the thing though, if my kaya jams can make their family happy, even for a little bit, I see that as a positive thing. The concept of changing someone's life is not always about the quantity of life, and sometimes it's just for the quality of life. If it can make them enjoy that moment with their families, with their kids, why not? I think that's a positive thing that we're fighting for.
Julee
Yeah, one individual at a time.
Nigel
Or one jar of kaya jam at a time.
Julee
Well, I love that approach and your vision of spreading a little bit more joy throughout the world. I mean, I definitely was very happy with your pandan jam so thank you so much for creating such a wonderful product and sharing your story with me. Just really appreciate your time.
Nigel
No problem.